Thursday, September 17, 2009

~It's Beginning to Look A Lot Like Christmas.....

Ok, so maybe not....but for the Music Ministry, Advent is soon approaching and we are extending an invitation to all who would like to join in the ministry in time to prepare for all our special Christmas activities.  Welcome to Mark and Vince who joined the Joy Celebration Choir and to Michelle who joined Sing for Joy recently.  There's plenty more room...A Note about Women of Spirit--because of the very busy Fall Schedule, we are postponing the Women of Spirit Celebration until January when we will be able to pour our full attention into it and make it the wonderful event it deserves to be.  BUT--calling all women--the Women's Ensemble--which is called Women of Spirit--is getting together in the very near future to rehearse a songs for the Christmas Service--If you would like to participate (rehearsals are scheduled at various times to accomodate people's calendars, please let Rev. Carol know...All are invited.

Wednesday, August 26, 2009

FALL IS HERE! IT'S A NEW YEAR!!!

Fall is a great time to try something new--think of it as re-inventing the "first day of school" for adults.  All of the musical groups are looking for new members.  Advent and Christmas are around the corner and Rev. Carol is already at work preparing the Christmas services.  If you remember how wonderful the mass choirs of Easter were, you won't want to miss out on being a part of this ministry.  Why not give Rev. Carol a call or drop in and see her to talk about how you might best use your talents OR how you might discover talents you never knew you had.  There's room for everyone in the Music Ministry at Joy!  Check out the rehearsal schedule.  Would you like to try something completely new?  Have a suggestion for a different kind of group or musical experience--the Music Ministry welcomes you!

Friday, July 31, 2009

The clavinova sparkles with possibilities!

Kim Baker wowed us all with his hard work to learn some os the ins and outs of the new clavinova. We heard organ sounds, orchestral instruments, while still having music that sounded like the grand piano we were used to. Thank you from all of us for spending so much time over the weekend to give us the gift of wonderful music on the new clavinova.
May I remind you that we are also seeking to fill our services with special music even in the summer. Please see me or email me at revcarol@joymcc.com if you would like to give it a try. Blessings!

Friday, July 24, 2009

It was quite a week for the Music Ministry!

The new clavinova arrived on Thursday. Seen here is a picture of the construction of the clavinova. It seems that the Curtis Grand Piano had one last task before it was loaded onto the truck--to oversee and bless its successor. Church musicians are already hard at work learning all the fabulous things that the clavinova will bring to the music at Joy. We will soon be announcing the date for a concert which will be given by all the pianists here at Joy as a tribute to the original donor of the grand piano and celebrate and dedicate the clavinova.
We were also blessed this week to receive a new piano donated by Harriet and Veenie for the choir room for rehearsals and such. This allowed us to move the old piano from the choir room (Rev. Carol's office) to Page House for use by other groups. We are so grateful for God's goodness and the generosity of the folks here at Joy.

Thursday, July 16, 2009

Joy Considers Options for Piano and Music Ministry

As you know, the Board of Directors will consider the future of the piano in the sanctuary at the Board Meeting this Sunday, July 19th at 1:00 p.m. What follows are some initial conversation points regarding the piano and its current condition as well as a proposal for a new instrument. You are invited to the forum and the BOD meeting to discuss this issue:

Initial Conversation Regarding the Future of the Sanctuary Piano
Facts about the Current Piano
· Yamaha C7, 1984
· Original purchase price in 1984--$15,000
· Selling on the internet in excellent or perfect condition from $11,000-$20,000. These pianos are reconditioned with 5-10 year warranties—would not apply to this piano in current condition
· Currently needs significant repair
o All hammers need replacing
o Tuning mechanisms in poor shape
o Sounding Board is in good condition
o Estimates range from $5,000-8,000 (will have additional estimate by BOD meeting)

Facts about the Yamaha Claviova 309GP—new stock, never used
· See specifications on the following pages
· Retail for 2008, new, $14,750
· Yamaha dealer willing to trade with no money difference

Benefits to Keeping Yamaha C7 and attempting to find the funds to repair
· It is a beautiful instrument
· Some people prefer the sound of a Grand Piano
· Piano dealers and pianists have all agreed that it is “a shame” that Joy doesn’t have the money to repair the piano

Benefits to trading for the Yamaha Clavinova
· Please refer to DVD presentation for full demonstration of capabilities of the clavinova
· Maintains the look of a Grand Piano while saving considerable space on the chancel
· Has multiple instrumentations such as
o Several organs
o Flutes, strings, brass
o Has built in percussion
· Has the ability to project from the computer inside the clavinova
· Acts like a “scribe” to record compositions or arrangements resulting in unlimited creativity
· Allows for the pre-recording of music for services such as funerals and weddings when we have no pianist
· Allows for various rehearsal modes
· 16-track recording studio built into clavinova so that tracks can be pre-recorded and then utilized with additional instrumentation during services
· No need to tune clavinova--Total estimated savings of piano tuning over next 5 years--$1500+ years
· Heat concerns are not significant with the clavinova compared to the grand piano

Additional concerns:
· Joy does not now have, now do we expect to have the funds to repair the current piano in the foreseeable future.
· It is not clear (and it cannot be predicted) how long the piano will be usable in its current condition—there are significant limitations already in the functionality of the piano
· Eventually, the piano will be worth very little as a trade—unknown at what point that will be true
· The Clavinova would be renamed the Curtis Clavinova to continue to honor the original gift and giver—a full scale concert with multiple pianists and dedication would be planned soon after the clavinova was installedThe grand piano will be removed and the clavinova delivered and set up at no additional charge to the church.

Wednesday, July 8, 2009

Participants Sought for Fall Women of Spirit and Men of Praise

Even in the heat of the summer, we are thinking of Fall events and opportunities for ministry. Most of you will remember the wonderful evening we experienced last year during our Women of Spirit celebration. Another such event is being planned for the Fall and we are seeking those of you who are interested in participating this year. We plan to expand the event to include more artwork, poetry and prose, song, and other expressions of women's spirit. The Women of Spirit singers will again be featured as well as other musical groups and individuals. Please contact me (revcarol@joymcc) if you would like to be included in planning meetings or to be kept informed of rehearsals and schedules. We plan to reach out into the wider community this year and know that you can play a major role in making this event a success. Watch this blog for news of a date.

Men, don't despair--we're also planning our Second Annual Men of Praise Concert. Let me know if you are interested in singing, reading poetry or participating in some other way. Again, please email me at revcarol@joymcc.com. Blessings!

Thursday, June 25, 2009

Don't miss it!

It's great to be back in Orlando! We heard wonderful music and experienced creative worship at the MCC Regional Cluster Conference in Pensacola, but Dorothy is right--"There is no place like home!" Thank you to Hank, Glen, Kim, and all the musicians who made it possible for us to go away and know that the worship at Joy would be great! It's a wonderful feeling to have folks you can depend on--thank you so much. Thank you also to Tami and Calvin for providing such heartfelt special music.

Don't forget our special Sunday coming up this weekend! Rev. Carolyn Mobley and Min. Adrain Bowie will be present in all our services to inspire and lead us in music. All women involved in the music ministry are invited to join Carolyn and Adrain for lunch at Perkins after the 11:30 service. However, you must let Rev. Carol know that you are coming by Saturday morning. Email her at revcarol@joymcc.com. Then we are in for a special treat at 6:00 pm after the Pride Potluck Picnic when Carolyn and Adrain will present and Evening of Praise and Prose. Join us, you will be blessed.

Thursday, June 18, 2009

Special Concert on June 28th!


We are so excited to have Rev. Carolyn Mobley and Min. Adrain Bowie as our guests for our Pride Picnic Day on June 28th. They will provide us with special music and readings for both morning services and will be present with us for the Pride Potluck Picnic. At 6:00 pm, they will present an "Evening of Praise and Prose" which is a ministry of song and readings that will bless your hearts and spirits.

We also want to say "welcome!" to Kevin who joined the Celebration Choir this week. We continue to look for special music--solos, duets, trios...please consider this your invitation. Don't wait to be asked...volunteer to bring glory to God in song. If you need help finding a song, email me (revcarol@joymcc.com) and we'll get together and find the right song for you or your group to sing. I'm looking forward to all of you coming forward to sing...if a long-term commitment to one of our ensembles is not for you, this might be the way for you to participate in the music ministry at Joy. Let me hear from you. And finally, thank you to all the people who will fill in for me while I am at Regional Cluster Conference. May you all enjoy the blessings of a heart that sings!

Tuesday, June 9, 2009

GayDays Sunday brings musical memories!

Thanks to everyone who participated in the Music the past Sunday. Tami and Kim delighted us with a very special "special music" selection. Sing for Joy were wonderful as they opened for Justin Ryan on Sunday night. We hope you were there to experience the entire concert.

One of the things that I find so meaningful about Justin's concerts is how often he talks about all the people in his life who enabled him to keep going and keep singing. Joy is a place where that happens as well. The music ministry team members all participate because of their gratitude not only for God's gift of music, but also for the gift of Jesus' love in their lives. Even if you don't actively participate in the music ministry, never forget that a word of encouragement lets each member know how much their ministry means to you. Look for new and exciting things to happen throughout the summer. We are committed to having special music every Sunday--if you can and want to provide some of that music, please let me know. The calendar is open and waiting for you to make a commitment.

Note the change in rehearsal schedules. Joy Celebration Choir meets the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Tuesdays. Sing for Joy meets every Wednesday. Check the Joy Music blog for more information.

Tuesday, June 2, 2009

Another Choir Member Honored!!!

The Music Ministry honors one of its own. Tami Tate recently received the Disney Partners in Excellence award bestowed upon her by her peers. She and her partner, Jody, (pictured--Jody on left, Tami on right) attended the award banquet earlier this month. Congratulations, Tami! All your brother and sister musicians at Joy wish you well and say "Congratulations!".

Welcome to Leo, William and Nathan, new members of the music ministry. We're so happy you decided to join us. There is so much going on at Joy in the Music Ministry that you will want to go to the Joy Music Blog to learn what is on the horizon. Please note that the rehearsal times have changed. Come join us,we're waiting to welcome you!

Thursday, May 28, 2009

Come, Make Music at Joy!


Don't forget! Justin Ryan is coming to Joy! We'll see you at his concert next Sunday, June 7th at 6:00 p.m. Sing for Joy, the Joy praise band, will open for Justin. See you there!


All of the musical ensembles at Joy are determined to avoid the typical "summer slump" experienced in most churches--so rather than wait until Fall to invite you to join one of the musical ministries, we're inviting you now. Rehaearsal schedules have changed so they may fit your schedule now--Joy Celebration Choir (the choir in the 9:30 service) meets every 1st, 3rd, & 5th Tuesdays of the month at 7:00 p.m. This is the nicest, most friendly bunch of people you will ever meet. We are eager for you to join us. Thank you Tim, for becoming our newest member. Our 11:30 praise band now practices on Wednesday evenings. The musicians start at 6:30 and the vocalists begin between 7:15 and 7:30. If you like praise band music and would like to join this group, please come to a rehearsal and see if it suits you! You are welcome!

Thank you to Joe, Phyllis, Marlyn and Melissa for providing out recent special music. There are opportunities for every vocalist or instrumentalist to provide special music for both services. Let me know (revcarol@joymcc.com) if you would like to be a part of worship at Joy. Don't forget to check out the Joy Music Blog for information on the complete music ministry. It's at http://www.joymccmusic.blogspot.com/. Have a wonderful summer weekend!

Thursday, May 21, 2009



We are so excited that Justin Ryan, an exciting young man who has been with us before, is on his way to be with us for our annual GayDays concert. Justin is a wonderful, spirit-filled singer, committed to serving God and bringing praise to Jesus. Won't you invite others to come with you on Sunday evening, June 7th at 6:00 p.m. here at Joy?This is a great opportunity to invite those who might not ordinarily come to a service with you--a chance for us to reach out into the whole community and bring them a true treat. Justin's style is part country, part rock, and all fun. I have heard much of Justin's story and it will touch your heart. Come join us for a delightful evening! We're looking forward to seeing you!

Wednesday, May 13, 2009

Music and Summer at Joy!

The recent warm weather has reminded us that Summer is upon us. Music at most churches seems to evaporate in the summer--but, not so! at Joy. There are special events planned--among them a summer concert by Sing for Joy, the GayDays concert featuring Justin Ryan and a Pride Picnic featuring a concert by Rev. Carolyn Mobley and Min. Adrian Bowie on June 28th.

We invite you to try one of our musical ensembles during the summer. It's a great time to try something new on for size. Does it fit? Perhaps you will find just the place that's been reserved for you to sing, tap your foot or bring an instrument. As the air heats up, we naturally become a little more casual. Why not take advantage of the summer to explore the Music Ministry at Joy.

Please email me (revcarol@joymcc.com) your choices for songs, hymns and anthems. We want to sing the songs you love to sing. May you all enjoy the blessings of a heart that sings! Rev. Carol

Thursday, May 7, 2009

The music ministry says "congratulations!" to our youngest musician. Jaden Christopher-Muench, one of our guitarists in Sing for Joy who recently received the S.O.A.R. award at Sunset Park School. Acoording to his moms, Brenda and Dana, the S.O.A.R. award goes to only one student per school and stands for Student of Achievement and Renown. S.O.A.R. students are cooperative, courteous, self-motivated, energetic, responsible, dependable, willing to share knowledge with others and have the ability to gain the respect of their teachers, administrators and peers. Way to go, Jaden! Your Joy family is so proud of you.

We are preparing for visits from Justin Ryan (June 7th) and from Rev. Carolyn Mobley and Min. Adrian Bowie (June 28th). These two concerts will begin and end our Pride celebrations here at Joy and will bring us great blessings. Watch the Joy Music Blog (www.joymccmusic.blogspot.com) and Joy Webpage (www.joymcc.com) for more details. May you all enjoy the blessings of a heart that sings!

Wednesday, April 29, 2009

Springtime and Music

Spring is such a wonderful time to refresh and reflect. We'd like to invite you to think about where you might fit into our vibrant music ministry. There are many opportunities for you to participate. Please read the information on the right sidebar of the blog to learn about existing groups. Got an idea for something new or different? Send me an email, the sky's the limit. In particular, we are looking for a bass player and additional singers for Sing for Joy, the 11:30 Praise Team. We continually seek folks who play instruments such as the flute or violin to add to the music in both services. Got a hidden talent? We can help you find a place to shine.

We have several upcoming special musical events: next week our Second Sunday Sings will feature our own David Sayko in Concert. On June 8 we will have a wonderful GayDays concert featuring Justin Ryan. Watch for more details on these and other events. May you all enjoy the blessings of a heart that sings! Carol

Tuesday, April 14, 2009

The Blessings of Easter

Words are fully inadequate to express my gratitude to all the musicians who participated in the Easter services last Sunday. As always, my gratitude to Kim is first and foremost. Kim plays tirelessly for every service and did a wonderful job with all the different styles of music, and the varied demands made on him for those services. Thank you, Kim. You bless us all with your talents. I also want to thank all the soloists--Kelsie, David, Glen and Jaden. Marlyn, Jaden, Chris, David and Kim--your instrumental talents were very much utilized and appreciated. Thanks to Terri for keeping up with us on the Sound Board and a special thank you to all the multi-media team for such wonderful work during a complex service. And finally, thank you to all the singers who gave so much time, energy and talent to make both services a wonderful experience for all who were in attendance. He truly is "risen"!

As we move into a new season, there is room for everyone in the music ministry at Joy. Take a look at the opportunities listed on the right side of this page and find one that you think might work for you. OR, think about starting a completely new ensemble or group. I'd love to hear your ideas and suggestions. Won't you send me an email or give me a call. This is also a call for composers who might be hesitant to come forward. If you have music that you've written, please contact me so that we can talk about utilizing your work in the music ministry at Joy. May you all have a wonderful week.

Wednesday, April 8, 2009

Easter Awaits!

Easter, in all its glory, awaits us! The music ministry at Joy has prepared, practiced, and prayed and is ready to bring you all the wonders of our Easter Service, "He is Risen!" Singing special Easter music will be the Joy Celebration Choir, Sing for Joy, God's Promise Kids, and Women of Spirit. Two anthems will feature the combined adult ensembles and will feature all the musicians active in the music ministry. Kelsie Glinksi-Boyd, one of our talented young people will be singing the solo with Women of Spirit.

We hope that you will be amazed and filled with praise for God and the talents that Joy has been blessed with. We're looking forward to sharing parts of all the worship services in one place so that everyone will have the opportunity to see aspects of the music ministry that you might not get to see on a weekly basis. We're excited and hope that you will be, too. Remember, both the 9:30 and 11:30 services are identical, so choose the one most convenient for you and come out to lift God's Name in worship and praise. Thanks for letting me be a part of Easter at Joy! Rev. Carol

Wednesday, March 25, 2009

First Semi-Annual Music Retreat a Success!


The Music Ministry Team enjoyed its First Semi-Annual Retreat as they prepared music for upcoming Sundays and, especially for Easter Sunday! All of the musical choirs and ensembles will be singing for both Easter services in identical services at 9:30 and 11:30. As more than 30 musicians and singers fill the chancel with praise and joyful singing, identical services with the theme of "He Is Risen" will lift up the Good News at Joy. Thank you to all the Joy musicians who gave up their Saturday to participate in the retreat. It gave everyone a chance to see the part of the music ministry that they don't regularly get to observe. A special thank you to our accompanist, Kim Baker, who faithfully played throughout the entire retreat and Terri Rawlings who ran the sound board for the day. Also a big thank you to all the wonderful cooks who prepared such a fabulous pot luck luncheon. Thank you to Kraig Evans who built us the new riser that we now need!
You are invited to join this exciting ministry. Welcome to Karen Jackson who joined Sing for Joy last night. We are thrilled to be making room for more and more musicians in both services.
Don't forget the special opportunity to hear Marsha Stevens-Pino in both morning services on Palm Sunday, April 5th, and in a full concert at 6:00 p.m. There will be a fellowship in the courtyard following the concert where you can meet and greet Marsha and Cindy. May you all enjoy the blessings of a heart that sings!

Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Momentum in the Music at Joy

It is amazing to watch the music ministry take off at Joy in ways we never even thought of a year ago. As I approach my first anniversary here at Joy, I am grateful to report that we now have 18 loyal and dedicated members in the Joy Celebration Choir and 12 enthusiastic and committed members in Sing for Joy. Women of Spirit now has 15 women singing for special occasions and is considering becoming an ensemble that sings on a more regular basis. We have a soloist or special music most Sundays and are always looking for more of you who wish to sing or play. Joy Music now has its own blogspot to keep you informed and Rev. Carol has begun a blog for folks who are interested in discussing more deeply aspects of music, worship, theology, and social justice issues. See the link on the right column of this blog.

And what is the best news of all? We have plenty of room for you to join us! We're building new risers for the 9:30 service and getting additional microphones for the 11:30 service. We're exploring new music and new ways of being in worship. God is moving in a mighty way in the music ministry at Joy and we hope that you will want to become a part of God's plan for music at Joy. Come, join us as we seek God's will and gratefully dedicate our gifts and talents to bring honor and praise to the Giver of all of Life's music. May you all enjoy the blessings of a heart that sings!

Thursday, March 12, 2009

Now is the time to join Music at JOY

Each week we have new members join the Music Ministry Team and we are thrilled to say welcome! We're glad you are here with us. Welcome to Katrina who joined Sing for Joy, our dynamic praise and worship team. We're building new risers to accomodate more singers in the Joy Celebration Choir, so we're making room for YOU! We have several new members in Women of Spirit as well, so we're just growing all over the place.

Next Saturday, March 21st, we will have our first Music Ministry retreat. See the schedule in the announcement above. Here's the schedule in another format: If you are in the Joy Celebration Choir (9:30 Choir) or interested in joining, you should plan on being here from 9:00 -1:30. If you are in Sing for Joy (11:30 Praise Team), you should plan on being here from 11:00-3:00. If you are in Women of Spirit only (our women's ensemble) please plan on being here from 11:00-1:45. We'll all eat lunch together and share in fellowship and discussion about the role and future of the music ministry here at Joy! If you are ready to explore where you fit in to all the fun, come and join us for the day.

Children of Joy, our children's ministry, is also preparing a song for Easter Sunday. You won't want to miss the blessing of hearing our children sing!

I don't know about you but I can hardly wait to see where the exciting ministry is going to continue to take us. God has richly blessed us with voices, musicians, and talent galore...come be a part of giving that blessing back in worship and praise. May you all enjoy the blessings of a heart that sings. Rev. Carol

Thursday, March 5, 2009

Joy Celebration Choir Seeking New Members

We added another new member to the Joy Celebration Choir this week! Welcome Ruth--we're glad to have you singing with us! As those of you at the 9:30 service have noticed, the Joy Celebration Choir is growing and growing--so fast that we are in the midst of planning for more risers. And we couldn't be happier. Won't you think about joining us as we prepare for Palm Sunday and Easter? The music is fun to sing and you just can't beat the fellowship. If you are looking for another family to call your own and you like to sing--come join us. The rehearsal schedule is posted above.

Women of Spirit is also seeking additional members to sing for Easter and on a more regular basis. If you are a woman who loves to sing and can commit to occasional practices, think about joining this group of vibrant and blessed women. Rehearsals for Easter are Saturday 3/14@ 1:30, Thursday 3/19 6:30 pm, Saturday 3/21 (mass rehearsal); Thursday 4/02 6:30 pm last time before Easter. CD's are available from Rev. Carol or Phyllis for you to rehearse.

Don't forget the Music Ministry Retreat on Saturday 3/21. Schedule is Joy Celebration Choir 9:00-11:00; Mass Choir rehearsal 11:00-12:30; Lunch 12:30-1:15, Women of Spirit--1:15-1:45; Sing for Joy 1:45-3:00. Lunch will be potluck--bring something easy for about 15 folks. It will be a good time for all. Have a great week!

Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Lent is an exciting time for Music at Joy!

As we move into our observation of Lent at Joy, I would like to take this opportunity to share with you some of the many events that will be happening in the music ministry. First, on March 8 @ 6:00 p.m., Kim and Carol will lead a very personal Second Sunday Sings--Old Fashioned Hymn Sing--Songs of the Cross. Come, sing about the "Old Rugged Cross" and Calvary.

On March 21st the entire Music Ministry will be having a Lenten retreat to prepare for Easter Sunday and to grow together as a ministry. This would be a perfect time for you to attend and see if you would like to participate in some way. Email Rev. Carol (revcarol@joymcc.com) if you would like more information or a schedule for the day.

April 5th (Palm Sunday) will be a special day at Joy. Marsha Pino Stevens, one of our all-time favorite musicians, will be here to present a concert at 6:00 p.m. Bring all your friends--let's fill the sanctuary to hear this very special woman minister to us. Marsha will also sing special music for both the 9:30 and 11:30 services. Watch this blog for special news about Easter Sunday music.

Thursday, February 12, 2009

Thank you to Sing for Joy!

What a blessing it was to be with Sing for Joy! for last week's Second Sunday Sings. I look forward to many more worship experiences as exciting as that one was. Thank you to all the members of Sing for Joy for your dedication and talent! We're glad God is using you in OUR midst! Don't forget! Next month we will be having an old-fashioned hymn sing of Songs of the Cross. Lent is almost upon us and it is a perfect time to meditate musically on the meaning of Calvary and the cross. Have a favorite? Make sure you send me an email so it can be included in our "songbook" for the night.

I'm also happy to announce that on April 5th @ 6:00 p.m. Marsha Pino-Stevens will be presenting worship in song at Joy. We're looking forward to welcoming her Palm Sunday as we start our Holy Week celebrations.

Won't you think about joining one of our musical groups. See the sidebar on the blog for information about some of the opportunities. We'd love to have you lift your voice with us at Joy!
Rev. Carol

Tuesday, February 3, 2009

Welcome to this new adventure...

We have a wonderful team of folks making up God's choir at Joy! And God has been good and has blessed us with new musicians and new singers. There are exciting things coming our way! Don't miss the PraiseFest this Sunday evening at 6:00 featuring Sing for Joy and all the Praise and Worship musicians. Second Sunday Sings in March will be an old-fashioned hymn sing with the theme of "Songs of the Cross". This Lenten hymn sing will give us an opportunity to sing many of the old favorites about Calvary. Email me your favorites and I'll include them in our songsheet. I am so happy that you decided to click on the link that brought you to this place. We will watch the Music Ministry continue to develop throughout the following months.

JOY METROPOLITAN COMMUNITY CHURCH

2351 S. Ferncreek Avenue
ORLANDO, FLORIDA
407-894-1081


Rehearsal Schedule

Joy Celebration Choir--1st, 3rd, & 5th Tuesdays at 7:00 p.m.
Sing for Joy--Every Wednesday Evening: Instrumentalists at 6:30 p.m., entire team at 7:15 p.m.
Women of Spirit--ongoing rehearsal times to be determined